SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, chicago, identity, south asian, trans, gender, community, person, book, queer, feel, world, parents, lgbtq community, space, fun, growing, friends, writing, question

00:00
forwarding. Perfect. So what are your name and pronouns?

00:05
Oh, my name is Saleha. Usually people call me Lisa. So let's say how are you? She her pronouns? And those are the questions right?

00:14
Yes. Yes. And so do you identify as part of the LGBTQ community?

00:21
Yes, I do.

00:22
What do you identify as?

00:24
I am a queer trans woman? So yeah, so both the T and the Q.

00:31
Awesome. And so when where were you born?

00:35
I was born. My God, I always forget what your was on. 89? Yeah.

00:48
Where were you born?

00:50
I was born in the United States. Released Yeah. In the culture? Yeah.

00:56
Very cool. So what is your ethnic background?

00:58
I'm South Asian. So my mom was from India and my father's rebounded fish.

01:04
Great, awesome. And so, so we can get to the first section I have here. So this is about family background and growing up. And so where did you grow up? And what do you remember about it?

01:15
Um, for the most part, I grew up in the United Arab Emirates. In the capital city, which was subtopic, which is without the, what do we remember about it? You know, in a lot of ways, the entire city is kind of like, an American suburb, it's, you know, it's fairly safe. You know, kids can be out at any time, like I said, comes about really, like, I don't know what actual suburbs are like, because yeah, like, but also like, you know, there's not that much to do you go to shopping malls you play. I remember, like, video games were like a big thing. Going and hanging out in the food guides of mice were a big was the big thing. And I was like, a child of the internet, but like, like, right at the picnic, sort of right at the beginning of social media. So I think that also meant that like, there was a good chunk of like, like my pre pubescent years, like, my tween years, where like, I was on the internet, but like, I wasn't necessarily, like, super steeped in it. So like, lots of reading. I've been reading. Yeah, I think we went to my I have an older sister. We went to a private school, and which, which was what one did, because the public schools were in the Arabic schools. So if you wanted an English language centered education, you went to a private school, and it was very rigorous. At least that's what I'm told compared to American schools, and school took up most of our time. And, yeah, I think I was a very sheltered upbringing. That's what I'd say. Like, in a lot of ways. It was a very sheltered very cloistered upbringing. Some of that has to do with how my parents raised us, you know, but I think some of that just has to do with the time and the place you.

03:26
Yeah, for sure. And so what was life like inside the home? Like, what? How is your family growing up? Like that kind of side of things?

03:35
I think, like, I'd say my family was, in some ways, like many nuclear families, right? My mom was a homemaker, my dad worked at a bank. And I, you know, we lived in an apartment. You know, I think in South Asia, if you live in India, or Bangladesh, or Pakistan, if you like, militia us, or, you know, upper middle class, oftentimes, even if you like, you know, sort of working class, but you're sort of making enough money usually has household health. That's not a thing as much in the United Arab Emirates, unless you're very, very wealthy. So it's more similar to the states in that way. So yeah, I think check in a lot of ways that it resembled life, you know, in, in many ways. It resembled life in America in many ways. You know, I think, you know, we used to have some vacations, we would like, you know, the same kinds of food like burgers and things. And I think it was not conservative, but I grew up Muslim. So, you know, prayer was a thing and the family. I think it was very clear that my father was the head of the household. So there were traditional gender roles, even though we were exposed to, you know, conversations around like feminism and, you know, secularism and things like that which shy, which I think at least, especially at that time, was those kinds of conversations were uncommon in my social circles in like sort of moderate to conservative, Bengali Muslim families, those were not things that were being talked about. My, my classmates were definitely from came from households where things were more conservative. But like compared to, you know, say, what we think of today as a liberal household. Anywhere in the world, I think my family trended more conservative. Yeah.

05:41
Okay, gotcha. And so, I know, for me, when I was growing up, I used to go to my friend's houses, and I'd end up playing with, you know, Barbie dolls, and those kinds of things. And those were some ways that I knew about my sexual orientation kind of early on. Were there any early signs about your gender identity and sort of how that was developing as you were growing up?

06:02
Yeah, I think like, for me, it wasn't, it wasn't a, it wasn't an issue until it was an issue for the people around me. Like my, so you know, I, there's, like, there's stuff around early childhood development that, you know, talks about how, you know, young people, young kids sort of begin to understand gender, right, by two, they can sort of distinguish, you know, sort of gender in the people around them by five, probably they can date usually declare a gender identity that often, you know, most of the time conforms with their sex assigned at birth, you know, and on many occasions, it doesn't fire my first, you know, thoughts that I remember having about myself, were like, these really kind of positive thoughts were like, I remember, you know, being four or five years old, kind of, like just spinning in our living room, like dancing and thinking, I'm just like, a pretty good, I'm so happy, you know, those were my first gender thoughts, you know, and those were probably my earliest kind of, like, coherent thoughts is like a person, you know, my first like, individuated thought, yeah, I think I never, I never thought to, like, agonize over my gender, or my sexuality or things like that, oh, my god expression. Until, like, people started pointing it out, because I wasn't thinking about it, you know, you know, like you like, I play with the dolls. You know, my sister's, teddy bears and things like, I didn't really have an interest in sports. And my dad was very sports oriented. And the culture there was very, very gendered, you know, like, very, very gender, you didn't have, you know, room necessarily, for like, you know, the weirdos and the nerds, and the queer queer kids, like, there wasn't really any room for, you know, anyone who didn't fit into those clear cut boxes, which you do have, to some extent, I think in, you know, Western schools, there was no room for that, you know, you couldn't go into you know, theater or whatever, you know, everyone did everything, and you couldn't escape scrutiny. So, you know, I think even before I realized anything about my gender identity, or, you know, my sexuality or anything like that, even people started giving me grief about it, you know, I started being bullied pretty badly. In seventh grade, and it was like a switch had flipped. You know, like, the first half of seventh grade, everything was fine. And I came back for the second semester. And, you know, I was just being like, relentlessly bullied. And like, things change at home as well, like, my father was like, much harsher. And like, there was like, an expectation that I perform these gender norms and things like that. So I started putting those expectations on myself, you know? And yeah, I think so for me, like, I think, like, a lot of queer and trans youth, if they if there wouldn't have been any pressure if there wouldn't have been any, you know, stigma from the outside world, from the home from the school, from, you know, society at large. I don't think, you know, I would have ever looked at myself and been like, oh, you know, like, my life is, you know, I'm fucked up. Sorry. Unless, you know, I'm, I'm wrong in any way. Because you've told that you internalize that, you know, so I spent a lot of my adolescence thinking, you know, that I can, I can think my way into being a kind of person who can function in society as it is. Because when I was growing up again, like, you know, we weren't super well to do which also meant, you know, and then you know, as I said, I was like a fairly conservative family. So, you know, Internet access was also restricted, you know, my parents kept pretty strict surveillance. So it wasn't like I was going online and you know, connecting with people and going on tumblr and finding all these schools and things like that. So, you know, it was fairly isolated all all I knew about Korean trans people or was from like literature and, like from some of like the, you know, Western media that we were allowed to consume, unsupervised, you know, but like, you know, sort of transferring that to a South Asian context was hard, because that representation just didn't exist, then. It exists so much more now, you know, like, you have Bollywood films with, like, actors, you have, you know, shows here, you know, with like queer and trans diaspora characters, but that wasn't really much of a thing. And that can be like, No one used to even use the words you don't know when say, gay. No one said trans X, except as long as you know, you didn't really think that there was there was a way you could exist in the world. He said the world that was around you, you you really had to radically envision a completely different world from the one you were living in, to think you could survive. US come completely yourself. And I think because one receives so much negative messaging, one kind of, like lost sense of what the yourself the self was, you know, sort of independent of all that kind of negative messaging. I think, like I said, a lot of things. I don't know if that answers your question, no,

11:32
100% That was great. Yeah. Like, we went above and beyond when answering that. Yeah, that was something definitely I can relate to as well. Yeah. So on, on sort of that tangent about South Asian identity, and how that kind of interplay with gender identity and queer identity. Do you think that when you were growing up and sort of coming to terms with the language and that element of your identity, do you think that it presented any challenges when it came to maybe labeling or coming out or any of those sort of processes that you had to undergo?

12:07
Sorry, I'm not really for me, because like, I grew up, multilingual. You know, so I, I thought in English from a very early age, so because so much of that language is Eurocentric, and because I think so much of that language, comes from English, and then has to be kind of retrofitted into all of these other languages. Right? I think I had him, you know, you'd have to make sense of these frameworks. Right? And for me, I think a lot of a lot of people come into sort of an awareness or contextual awareness of the gender and sexuality. A lot of queer trans people come into contextual awareness of their gender and sexuality to work through, you know, representational politics or social justice movements. Right. Right. Need for is more through art. English major, I read a great deal. So for me, it was very, like reading things and being like, Oh, I'm connecting with this and like, thinking about like, gender as a performance and things like that. Yeah, for sure. It was, I think, initially, for me, before coming to Chicago, he was a very sort of individual to me, as opposed to a communal journey. So I didn't really struggle. Like once I had the room to be myself. It was like, you know, I was like, Yeah, I'm just gonna, you know, be the person I am, do whatever I want. You know, if I want to live, you know, I think it really was a matter of finding a context in which I felt like I could survive and thrive without being treated badly. Like, it really came down to that it really came down to a sort of, I don't know, like pragmatism, I guess?

13:50
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, that's, that's very interesting. Yeah. I'm curious. Actually a little like, side tangent. Do you have a favorite book or author that sort of helped you when it came to finding that you know, relatable illness or that you talked about exploring yourself through art?

14:10
Yeah, so this is so corny, because this is such a such an English major cliche. So I did my senior thesis in college on Virginia Woolf's Orlando. Oh, I love that book. Yeah. It's amazing. Oh, my God. Yes. So, I was reading that and I was reading Judith Butler is trying to travel at the same time. Like, you know, do some research, you know, you know, that just sort of as, like a reference for my thesis, and it just like, as I was reading it, I remember like, my brain being like, sort of blown open. Just I was like, I have never thought of these things in this way. And why haven't I? You know, like, I've just been around me like, it was very like The Matrix, you know, suddenly like this has this is how the world has always been I just haven't seen it. I know I just seen. It was very, very like it was like a switch. You know, it was it was the that.

15:08
Yeah, for sure. Virginia Woolf does a really great job of writing about loss and you know, also hope I love her books.

15:17
She's my favorite. Awesome. Yeah, she's

15:18
my mom's your other two. Yeah, that's, that's actually really cool. I just read Mrs. Dalloway, I think last year for a class I took. And that was also a really good book.

15:28
So I'm so glad that they like, you know, they have that in high school. I thought, like, usually when I hear about, like, the books in American high schools, I always hear about books that are like, the students don't like reading about like, The Grapes of Wrath, which is like, yeah, you know, it's not, it's a dry book, like, important book. But like, I always think that books from like, the modernist period, like, you know, you know, was than then, you know, poetry, TSA and things like that. I feel like young people would get so much more into that, because it's weirder. And it touches upon things like, you know, coming of age, sexuality, loss, all that stuff, you know, being like a mess inside your head. These are things everyone can relate to, especially young people. So yeah, I like I've always wondered why didn't teach that stuff and don't like, I don't know, cold mounting. And yeah.

16:21
100% We read Frankenstein, and I think that was actually a really good relatable, I think kind of like thematically relatable book. Just general. Like stuff from that time period is definitely way better than like, you know, when we read of mice and men, not many people were into that and so kind of

16:41
such a good like, allegory for like raising a trans kid.

16:45
Yeah, that's one of the conversations. Yeah, that's actually a big discussion we had in that seminar. So that was our aside that I don't think I explored. I was thinking more of Gods and Monsters in that book thematically. So that was interesting, too. We also read The English Patient by Michael Ondaatje. I love that book. Yeah, like lots of lots of cool books.

17:11
I had lunch with him. Really good. Michael Adichie. Yeah.

17:15
Oh my god. He's one of my favorite authors. That is so cool.

17:19
He was such a sweetheart in person. He looks he looks like like a, like a big lion. Basically. Yeah, he had like light eyes and like this sort of interesting white beard and hair. And he was just a sweetest most, you know, unassuming person. Like I was sitting right next to him. I was a college student. So I was asking, like, the most obnoxious questions. And he was like, perfectly chill, you know? Yeah. You know, so he's stuff like Sri Lankan origin and, like, you know, being from South Asia and things like that, but he was like, such a sweetheart. It's like one of my favorite memories.

17:50
Yeah, he's he's a way with words. Like, I swear that book is just like, fantastic. I love that book so much. Yeah, awesome. So we can I love the little tangents. Oh, my God. No, no, I

18:05
love it. I love it. Awesome. So I'm curious about what your when you had finally and develop that sense of self. And when you moved out of, you know, your household and that sort of conservative environment, how you went about sharing that with others, maybe your family, friends, things like that?

18:25
You know, so I think once I was in college, and then at one point, I was like, financially independent, you know, my dad was like, I can't send you money anymore. I want a scholarship. Yeah, otherwise, I wouldn't have been able to come to America. But you know, I needed money for room and board. And he was like, I can't send it. So at that point, I was sort of forced out into the world completely. But what I also did was like, I didn't have to give a fuck anymore, right? And I was like, I want you know, and I think very early, I decided that I'm not going to come out to anyone or anything. I'm just going to do my thing. I'm going to post the pictures on Facebook, because Facebook was the thing, then. Yeah, you know, and I'm going to talk about what I want, I'm going to share the articles I want, I'm going to talk about, you know, you know, oppression and queerness and all of these things. And, you know, people can infer what you want from it. You know, and I'm not gonna I'm not gonna hide anything. But, you know, no one says, and no one's trade has had ever announced to me that they were those things, except, you know, defensively or whatever. What should I do? You know, I'm not gonna do that. Soon as they like, I'm gonna live my life and you can, you can take from that what you want to. So I think what that also meant is people who, you know, had an issue or like, or DS or whatever, like, you know, like, people were like, really, like, you know, disagreed or, you know, found my life for my identity. You know, reprehensible or any of that stuff. I just sort of dropped away, because there was nothing for them. Like, there was no declaration for them to contend with, you know, I was just out here doing my thing, you know. So this just kind of dropped, doing, you know, like, there was like one or two kind of like, stray kind of like, nervous jokey comments here and there. But otherwise, I was just like, I'm just gonna do my thing, you know. And that's how I've continued being, you know, I've never had that moment of like, oh, you know, this is why I'm, this is what I'm going to be doing, this is what it's going to look like. Because it's just never felt particularly necessary to me, although, I truly understand the value and the merit of coming out. Like, I understand why that's so meaningful. For a lot of people, like in college, the couple of times that I did tell someone, it was special, because, you know, in college, I'd become best friends with someone. And at one point, you know, and we're still best friends, and she turned to me, and she said, Are you buying, you know, and I was just like, you know, like, lights had gone on on my, in my head. Because it was such a, it was such a, like, it was such a sweet question. It wasn't meant as like, an a dog or anything. It was like, Are you part of my tribe? You know? And I was like, yes, you know, yes, that was, you know, so those kinds of moments were there. But like, I never felt like I need to, like make any kind of declaration, I just did my thing. And I think that just sort of shamed people into either exiting my life or like, you know, shutting up and dealing with, however, I was doing things.

21:31
Yeah, for sure. That's very inspiring, actually. Yeah, I think that's a great mindset to sort of go about living with. And so I'm also curious about as you kind of grew into the identity and started, you know, not having to explain to people and sort of just you know, moving about life, as unbothered as you're describing, right? How would you describe your experiences in both the South Asian community and the LGBTQ community?

22:02
In the LGBTQ community? You know, there's all this systemic stuff. Personally, I haven't had, like, you know, all the issues, that I know, people that I know, you know, my community members have, you know, it's like, you know, we live in strange instances, but I think I've been very fortunate, because I know that stuff happens. You know, I'm aware of it, it's happened to people in my life, you know, whether it's someone being racist, whether it's someone's internalized racism playing out, whether it's someone's internalized homophobia, transphobia playing out, I think I was hard, like, smoother journey. I think that might also be because a very, like, I've a very strong core community around me. And when I say community, I don't mean it in those sort of more diffuse larger sense of like, the LGBTQ community, right, like, I mean, you know, that my people are friends, people with all my share worldview, people with whom I've gone through some, you know, gone through things and so on. And I think they've, you know, sort of formed a protective bubble around. So I think like, that sort of sped me some of that, you know, crap. And I think the other part of it is, for most, for most of that time, I think, like, I was fake, I never felt like I was doing anything wrong. And I think, in general, I think like, the moment I got here, I was determined to have a good time. So because of that, maybe I didn't even notice when people were being shitty, like, you know, being trans. Like, I think there's, there's no person more visible in the world, then a trans woman of color, right up, specifically a black trans woman, but like, you know, trans women of color. But it's so like, it's something like so I know that like, you know, other people must notice in writing, they probably, you know, have some sort of thought about you or whatever, like on the train or the world or whatever. And I hear especially now, you know, with the wav file transfer transphobic rhetoric and legislation, I think that's emboldened a lot of people to just be openly kind of like, violent both verbally and physically. But I think like, I've had sort of a charm during in that sense that I There have been so clueless that I haven't noticed people being shady to me, or I've just had the good fortune to be around strangers who have been really really nice to me. Like, I haven't had those, you know, people saying something to me on the train, or people saying something to me in the shops or anything like that, you know, people have been like, uniformly sweet to me, you know. I don't know why that is. That might be because I look like such a hapless tourist. They might think this person's lost. What's the point of thinking to this person? That is also I think it's really sad that I have to call that a privilege. Because that shouldn't be a privilege. Going our living your life unmolested and onhand, shouldn't be a privilege. But for a queer and trans people, oftentimes it is right. And that's really sad. I don't think I know, any transforming. In my sort of PR group, you know, who hasn't faced issues like this. And this, this spans across various sort of demographic factors, whether it's age, race, income status, even like things like pretty privileged, all of those things you're taking ability, you know, and all of those things factored in to exacerbate those kinds of, you know, abuse marginalization. So yeah, I don't know, I have, like, complicated feelings about, you know, my journey, intersecting with the journey of Miko, like, you know, larger community with the members of my larger community.

26:01
Yeah, for sure. And that makes a lot of sense to, and also, um, to sort of go a little forward in time a little bit. So you were involved with trachoma? I know at one point pretty heavily, right.

26:18
So I'm still a board member. I was board precedent for I think, 2015 to 2017.

26:26
Right, right. And so why was it important to you to be involved with an organization like Dr. Cohn and sort of foster that South Asian queer group of, you know, people who were participating with organizations.

26:38
So it was a few things that was really fun, you know, the party that we do every other month, where we raise money, you know, for, you know, other sort of community or it's a kind of unusually thing that we do. It's also like a space for people to come in, have fun and not feel, you don't judge for these other things that these things are deeply charged for in like, you know, what we now know, is like North Halsted, like at some, you know, those parties and things like that, whether it's x, and whether it's the color of their skin, etc, etc. Like, creating that space is fun seeing people seeing people of the Diaspora seeing, you know, they see immigrants be feeling liberated feeling, like having fun dancing to, you know, music, they recognize it was cute, you know, it's just so much fun. I had fun at those parties, it was fun for me, to foster that space for other people to help, you know, hold that space for the people. I got a lot out of it. It made it emboldened me, like I got a lot of courage out of being in those spaces, I met some of my best friends in those spaces. So it felt like it felt like paying it forward. In a way I was like, this is this is a source of strength. This is a sort of source of courage for me. So it can be for other people, it has been a lot of people, you know, who used to come to record spaces, early on, don't necessarily computer code spaces now. But they've made friends into Code Spaces that they're still friends with deeded into common spaces, they fall partners into common spaces. So that was really cool. I think the other thing for me was, I think a lot of community orgs within the LGBTQ community can be sort of sis gay, male centered, it was very important for me to shift that it was very important for me to shift out to a more trans inclusive or more feminine, inclusive or more woman inclusive, sort of space, you know, to, to more inclusive lens, and also to build community with other, you know, queer POC orcs in Chicago, like, you know, I try things like, you know, other orgs like that. So, I think those were some of my goals, those were things I pursued, you know, pretty aggressively as president. So yeah, I think those were the things. But I think like, you know, I think like, one thing I would like to emphasize is, it was it's also a great time, you know, like, I think it's a lot of, it's a lot of hard work, because there is, you know, you do get like fatigue, right, like from doing that sort of work, like especially because a lot of that work is, you know, you end up doing it's like a core team of people who end up doing most of the heavy lifting. So you get burnout, you know, so I've had that at several different points. But, you know, it can be really fun, it can be a really great way to meet people, it can be really great way to also stay connected with where the conversation is, at this point, not be sort of, in this bubble, of, you know, this is how it was when I was, you know, 19 or this is what you know, things sounded like or was why like, you know, like, you know, when I came into this recording work, you know, I hear people seemed like there weren't these many names, and then you know, pronouns and this out, we didn't have to worry about all of this. And, you know, I would sit and have these conversations with these people or be like, you know, what we asked you to do is not very different from what you asking people to do, you know, 10 years ago, or five years ago, which is saying that the people who feel emboldened to be themselves they haven't, this is not an identity that's been invented. This is a this, this is people coming into their own, and you've been role models for them. So we're asking you to welcome them and, you know, model community for them. So yeah, I think, and I had certain advantages, you know, I had certain privileges, because I was English language, fluent, but I was also, you know, fluent, I'm also fluent in, you know, South Asian languages. And then, you know, because I lived here for a bit and, and had the sort of liberal arts college experience, but I also was an immigrant, you know, like, strictly middle class, you know, sort of, like hustlin family background. So, you know, so there was I was sort of in that middle space, and that sort of liminal kind of space. So I could speak to multiple audiences in the, in the trombone community. So I think that helped.

31:18
Yeah, for sure. That's, that's really great. And I'm really actually glad that you were able to create that space, because I went to my first potluck the other day, and that was also very fun. Yeah, so I'm just, it's a great effort that you guys have done on over these years, I know, I've spoken to a couple other board members, and they were talking about how that work was often unpaid. And so it's really great, honestly, all the work that you guys have done. And so to shift gears a little bit, I want to talk a little bit about your career and that sort of side of things, and also education. And so I'm curious about, like, what occupations you've worked in, and sort of how your LGBTQ and your South Asian identities have shaped your interests, and also the occupation that you kind of decided to venture into.

32:09
Yeah, so I think like, this is another way that I think like, I'm sort of like an anomaly and sort of, you know, totally, like a lot other, you know, mainstream South Asian community, like I, I, you know, haven't really pursued a career. Again, you know, I had a degree in humanities, which you're not supposed to be supposed to go into, at least at that point, you were supposed to go into STEM, you know, and I, I can't, I can barely do basic, you know, sort of addition. And after that, you know, career was never like, I think, like, as an adult, was never focused. For me, I think, like, for me, I just wanted to be a person. And so I kind of fell into work, different kinds of work. But interestingly, all of them had something with the adult to do with my identities. So I worked at the Inter American Center for a little bit. And, you know, I was teaching there, you know, I was teaching English as a second language. And that was a cool thing to do, because I was teaching like, you know, these peoples were my grandparents age. And so there was like this kind of intergenerational, you know, sort of work there that I really appreciate it. It's never my grandparents is around. And so it was really sweet and lovely. For me. I was working with like, mostly these things. Most of the staff there is South Asian. So that was interesting to work in a majority sized South Asian space, in America, in Chicago. And then when I went to work at Lurie Children's Hospital, but I was working in, you know, the gender division, so I was doing things that were specifically targeted towards the LGBTQ community, whether it was HIV and STI testing, whether it was gender and sexuality, education, whether it was outreach, stuff like that, and then, you know, that recording stuff wasn't like a paid job, but it was, it was something that like, took up a lot of my time. So that, again, had to do with like, an intersection of all of those identities. And then I've done like online sex work stuff and content creation stuff. And that again, like definitely, you know, given how, you know, those industries are being used on the commodification of identities as sort of, you know, sexual interests or whatever. Again, like they they much focus like hyper focused on these particular aspects, you know, South Asian, brown, trans, etc. Yeah, I think the only thing that I've done that's probably not as directly kind of linked to, you know, sort of these explicit identities instead of like I write about like, films and pop culture and things like that. And that's probably not like directly linked with these identities. But that's also filtered through like a transplant. Right, right lens of a brown person. Right. So, yeah, so I think like, it's, it's not been on purpose. But I think it's, it's just been the case that like, my journey has sort of, like, pulled from these from these very visible identities.

35:26
And what films and media do you like writing about?

35:30
So I've written about lots of different things, but like, I, mostly South Asian Film, Indian food. Also, I've written for, like, a few blogs, I've written for newspapers back home. And yeah, it's been like, very, it's like, it's, it's a daily writing, but like, it's fun, you know? Yeah. Like, it's, it's the writing that I wish I had when I was. So when I was growing up, like, I wanted, like, serious writing about Bollywood. I was like, I want I want like, good, you know, interesting, insightful criticism. But like, why don't we have that, like, we have, like, classes on like, you know, Harry Potter films and books and things, like, you can go to Harvard. And, you know, take a class on exploitation cinema, right? So like, why don't we have that on mainstream Bollywood cinema? You know, like, get into the traditions there, you know, like, what are the traditions are very different from the traditions that have that have formed Hollywood cinema, you know, vaudeville, or Broadway or comic books, or whatever they may be, you know, with, with South Asian cinema, it comes more from, you know, a genre, you know, like street theater ologies, things like that. So it's like, why, why is no one writing about this stuff? In a way? That's interesting? And why is any serious writing about it coming from these western academics? You know, so yeah, I think that that was that was the, that was the lens through which I was coming at it from, you know, yeah. So different things. And often, often from a personal lens, you know, like I, I did some writing I, some of the writing that I think like, was really fun for me to do, was writing about, like things like fashion, and film and identity linking those things, through, like, through sort of a conversation about my childhood, as like a young, queer trans kid, in this sort of conservative Muslim family, but also consuming things like strategy, three films and things like that growing up, and how that shaped my journey, you know? Yeah, those are some things that I write about.

37:40
Awesome. Very cool. And so I'm curious how those lenses that you mentioned, were perceived by others, do you think that they sort of increased the amount of, you know, South Asian, LGBTQ sort of discourse that wasn't really being shared with others? And like, those lenses? Were kind of being diversified a little bit? Or do you think that they weren't received? Well? Or what are some of your feelings about that?

38:07
Again, you know, like, I don't, I haven't gotten much negative feedback, but that also might be because, like, I just have stayed through lists of it. You know, we don't like podcasts and things like that with like, you know, people in the community, like in the online, sort of, like fan community. You know, everyone's been sweet, nice, you know, people, people are shitting on the internet. But by going by what I hear, I've mostly been fortunate, like, it's been a, it's been a tiny sliver, you know, no one's like, tried to dox me, you said, to me that, like, I'm, like, you know, like, a shame to the community. And like, you know, like, fatwas should be issued against me or whatever. Like, I talk pretty openly about being, you know, mostly I'm in trance and all of these things on my Twitter, for instance, you know, even on like, you know, so I, you know, do all the fun stuff. So, a lot of that stuff has to be publicized through social media. And, like, I'm pretty open about the fact that again, you know, I'm an immigrant, I'm a Muslim and all of these things and I'm open about my politics you know, that like my politics changed fairly progressive predictor, dinos. admins are not things I hide. But again, like your when when you're doing that kind of work, your audience is not necessarily sharing the same beliefs as you a lot of them are, you know, people in like, I don't know, Utah or whatever. Like you don't go into like anti trans rallies and trying to, you know, trying to get bathroom bounce powers, but you know, and then are coming home and opening an incognito window and like, you know, you know how but like I try not to be I try not to I try not to diminish or hide any part of myself. I don't think I'm the loudest person in the room by nature. You do not have any competition. Universal, I think in a way, I think that might make me an easier that might have made me an easier pill to swallow, then then people who might know who are actually more calm, I'd say, who have more things that are more valuable to contribute to both the community and the discourse. Like I think because because this, they stick the stigma truly right to the like, you know, they're more uncompromising. And I think that's really beautiful and important. And I think those are the people who often get real change done, but because I think like, I am by nature of the sort of person who, you know, tends to get along with people and you know, it's not gonna yell and things like that. I, I'm, I get along with people in spaces in which, you know, folks, were doing more valuable work folks who are like more, we're deeper thinkers than I am. You know, we're doing more valuable work than I am. Army would have trouble getting into or speaking in. Yeah.

41:15
And Dasha understood. So I have some, I think one question about Chicago, specifically, in your time here. And so a question that I've been asking everybody that I've been interviewing is sort of related to the more personal stories within Chicago. And so I asked, what are some places of notable personal value to you as a queer person or South Asian person? Or both? Neither in Chicago, and why do they matter to you and so for some inspiration, or, you know, ideas or anything like that, I've spoken to people and they've talked about a beach or museum or the river or the lake, just things like that, I've helped them develop their identity or their, you know, sense of self in Chicago. So do you have any places that come to mind? And why do they matter?

42:08
It is, you know, what, I think, again, like I think, not to be a Chicago cliche, the lake is a part of our lives. Right? And the freedom it affords you, you know, you're just like, you can I live in Roger sparks, like, right on the Luke, I just have to, like, hop across the street and the leak is right there. And I, again, like this might be because I haven't noticed as many things so you know, I'm sort of like sort of blithely my own world. But you know, in the pandemic, I'd be out there at like two o'clock in the morning taking walks, you know, on the residence. That's how I've been, you know, what, I never made that calculation that's like, you know, you know, as my present him as my gender presentation change from more like, you know, kind of non binary to more like, visibly femme. You know, I never made those calculations at all, I need to be more careful this and so on. Which I real pragmatically ought to have me, but I didn't. So, but like, that gave me such a sense of freedom, you know, that's not something I would have been able to do. Seemed haakaa, right, like, which is where we were settled. When we were in Bangladesh, I spent four years in Bangladesh before moving here. So that that's very empowering. One of the reasons I moved to Chicago, one of the kind of like, omens that I took as like a good omen was like, before moving to Chicago, when I was in college, I came to Chicago, and I visited the Art Institute, it was bitterly cold, you know, obviously, Chicago, winter was December, and I was at the Art Institute, and I was like, Okay, I think I can live here, you know, because I was in the modern wing, and, you know, they have those huge windows, right? Yeah, I'm, we're sort of coming in. And I was like, I could live here. This is, this is great. I'm surrounded by art. There's some coming in, I was going to school in like, you know, small town, Arkansas. And I was like, this, this is great. I can do this, you know, I can be here. So that, you know, the Art Institute is really meaningful to me. You know, I think like, just the power of like, being in the world in Chicago, walking around downtown. And feeling feeling free, you know, like walking around, like, like, I'm, I'm a fairly tall, noticeable person. So you know, like, not, not necessarily being conscious of that just like, feeling my words, you know, and like my headphones in listening to, you know, whatever I'm listening to whether it's like, I don't know, you know, Bruce Springsteen or like Bollywood or whatever, like just having, you know, like, feeling by your words, having a good time. I think like, makes a lot of Chicago magical for me the league. When I when I, when I worked at Louis, we were right by the liver river. And that is why it was funny. None of my co workers would go to it. But I always went, and I was I was having a really hard time at Berkeley. I think a lot of people who work queer and trans people, especially trans women will tell you who work in a kind of not for profit space and like queer not for profit spaces will tell you that it can be very exploitative, where they have to do a lot of frontline work without being adequately compensated. And there's a lot of burnout again. So, I think it was really hard for me at the office, I go to this river. And it was like a little bit of river just behind our office. And there was like a little red door by the river, and red opened into nowhere, it was just the other side of the other side of, you know, sidewalk or whatever the fuck. And I was, like, so magical to me, like, I just walk there. And like, I'd be like, everyday, I'd have like a split second, if I opened his jaw, and what if, like, there's something completely different. On the other side, there's like a 14 or something. So, you know, there are all these things is, that felt sort of wonderful and magical to me, just by virtue of being there. You know. And then, of course, the places that we've been in with recording, right, like Bitrix was where Jay who used to be, so that was that was, you know, so many memories. You know, being at the cheeks, their homes, you know, community members homes, where we had lots and lots of potlucks where I met some of my best friends. So the memories of those, you know, we've had a lot of a lot of fire generals at the call now. So, you know, there's that the, you know, these are very imperfect places, the places where the issues of like, you know, racialized experiences, gendered experiences, or ablest experiences, but at the same time, there's some nostalgia, there's a lot of fun news. And so, you know, you see the bouncer and you're like, Oh, my God, you know, that party or whatever, or things like that, you know, you like, you're like, in Berlin, and you remember six years ago, you know, like, just being on the, you know, red line getting on the red line on Belmond. And like, you know, he said, like, a four quart or something. And like, barely anything was something like six drinks in and just like puttering around. Like it's, it feels like a Chicago thing. All of those things feel feel magical. Yeah.

47:19
Yeah, that's, that's awesome. I love that so much. I think Chicago is very magical, even when you're, you know, too young to be doing all the bar things. I don't think that has stopped me. But you know, I do think that there are the like, is certainly very magical. Yeah, I'm very lucky to look at it every day. I love it so much. Yeah, awesome. So I just have one last question. And before I get to that one, it is a bit cliche, I will be honest. I wanted to ask if there any other topics that you wanted to cover with me or questions you had for me more about the project or anything like that? No? Okay, awesome. Okay, so the very cliche last question I have for you is, if you can give advice to any young South Asian LGBTQ plus people, what would you say to them?

48:13
Um, you are not the only one. I think like, even if, even if, like, you know, the South Asian kids, DC kids know, intellectually, like you're on an intellectual level, on a rational level, that they're not the only ones, I think they still feel like they're the only ones. families make them feel that way. Because their communities make them feel that way. They make them feel like queerness is anti antithetical to South Asian identity, anti religious identity. You know, I think religion, religious identity is so tied up with cultural identity for South Asians, whether you're a Hindu or a Muslim, this, there's so much of that, right. So I think I would, I would tell them that you don't have to give up any of them. You know, no, I'm giving that up. I think the other thing I would want them this is like, just, from what I've heard from other queer and trans people, is that there is this experience with like, minority community parents, well, you have to keep coming out to them. And your parents, like keep ignoring it. You know, like, it's just a thing that you have to keep doing and it's and your parents basically out, like, they haven't heard you. And, you know, like, in DC families, you stick together, right? Even though you have all these issues, and, you know, people are not getting along, you can like parents don't necessarily disown their kids. Kids don't necessarily abandon their parents. So I'm kind of an anomaly in that sense, where I'm, I'm very okay with being like, this person's toxic, I don't need to talk to them, you know, but like most of most of my community members, a lot of my friends are not like that, you know, I have friends remotely supportive parents, who, who go and visit their parents, we have their things you know, I would tell them that this is something you might have to do. Do you feel pressure just do you think your parents are going to make choices that they're going to make? Just that they're human beings. They're not don't infantilize them. I think we, we do this thing where we're like, we were thinking that, Oh, my parents aren't handled as if they were adults. You know, we live through bunches of decades, you know, that stuff, like they want to always like, you know, 45 year old, you know, can you know, conservatives, they've lived through shit in front of student marches and things like that, if they've forgotten all of that stuff that's on them. infantilize your parents, don't, don't worry, like, you know, just just do your thing, or have you fun. If you're worried, I think about things like being disowned. I know conversion therapy is a thing that hangs over a lot of the secrets is a threat. You know, this is something that, you know, both immigrants and diaspora kids have spoken to me about. You don't have to, you don't have to feel pressure to come out just because all your, you know, white friends are coming out. You can chill until you're financially independent, and then do your thing, you know, post, you know, pictures and speeders go to File and do whatever you want. Just wait, you know, till you're financially independent, there's no obligation to come out. There's no moral obligation for you to come out. That doesn't make you a coward. You know, do your own thing. Do it on your own timeline. You know, that's good.

51:32
Oh, that's, that's awesome. Yeah. 100%. Well, thank you so much for this conversation. This was actually very, very awesome. I don't like it was just a wonderful conversation. Did you have any last questions before we wrap it up? I had so much fun talking to you think she was it was really great. Yeah, I'm glad. So I will definitely keep you in the loop about what I do with this interview. Ultimately, I think one of the primary things I'm going to use is in like a paper that I'm writing a research paper, but I think I'm working with the National indo American museum to sort of do something with all of the work that I'm doing. So we'll see how that goes. And so I'll definitely keep you in the loop there. But otherwise, thank you so much for joining me today. This was awesome. Yeah,

52:17
thank you. Best of luck. Yeah, you

52:18
too. Have a good night and I hope you recover well from your accident.

52:22
Yeah. Thank you. Thank

52:23
you. Okay, bye.