SAADA

Daniel Sunkari Oral History Interview

Interviewee: Daniel Sunkari

Interviewer: Dhanya Addanki

Transcriber: Julia Tanenbaum

DS: 0:00
My name is Daniel Sunkari. I'm based in Long Beach, California.

DA 0:05
Were you raised in Long Beach, California?

DS: 0:08
No, I was raised primarily in Sacramento, California, partially in the Bay Area, and I was born originally in India.

DA:0:18
Where were you born in India?

DS: 0:21
In a city called Guntur in Andhra Pradesh.

DA: 0:25
Tell me a little bit about that journey from Guntur to California. Were you a baby when you came?

DS: 0:33
Yeah, I was a baby. So I don't remember any of it. My Dad actually came to the US in 1995 as a software engineer, and my Mom stayed back because she was pregnant with me and she wanted to have me before she came.

Both of them weren't originally kind of planning on moving over to the States. They really felt like it was God calling them to be in for some reason or purpose to be in the US. But obviously it's a big move to leave your family and to leave everything, so it was hard when my Dad got a kind of an undeniable opportunity because it just kept coming up.

And so he was on the phone with my Mom, when she had me, and I was in Guntur for about, I'd say like, four months. I had some like health complications and stuff when I was born. But after those four months, everything kind of settled. And then my Mom and I came over to meet my Dad, and we moved, I want to say to San Jose. I'm pretty sure I'm in, like, South San Jose. And yeah, we started our life here.

DA: 2:00
Okay. Do you remember a time when you were growing up that, like, you first started thinking about caste, because it's very different growing up here, right? Like, we're hidden from a lot of things that happen in India. And it's not as you know, like, people aren't as in your face about these things. So was there a time when you were a kid or even when you were older? Just when did you start figuring things out for yourself? Or was it conversations that your parents had with you?

DS: 2:28
Yeah, my family. We talked a lot about caste, actually from day one, because I think it was such a significant piece of who we are, and every time I visited India I saw how my family was living and the sort of things they were doing. It was kind of, it just had to be a part of the conversation because it's part of the reason why, you know, we're originally from the more rural village kind of context. And actually, particularly on my mother's side, her grandfather or sorry, her father, so my grandfather was the first in our village to get an education. So prior to him everyone was illiterate. We worked on farms, lemon farmers. And so education was a really significant thing that kind of moved us across classes a little bit within pretty much just the previous generation. So my Mom's generation was the generation that got education and moved forward.

But and I think you kind of know about this, but just the religion and caste, are so intertwined. So being Christian, the way we were introduced, how I was also introduced to my faith, was also largely in terms of caste, because we were clearly very different than everyone else around us. We're not. There are a good amount of Christians in Andhra, but particularly where we were living it was pretty clear that it wasn't entirely Christian. And so I would have questions about the other kind of religious things that I saw around. Ceremonies, statues, things like that, a lot of that also contributed to our conversation around caste.

I would say growing up, it was very much more kind of overtly religious. And I mean that as in more religious than political or social. Kind of the way we talked about caste, because we understand that caste comes originally from religious texts. And so we were devout Christians. And I think we were feeling that the way that we were experiencing caste today, which is directly correlated to the presence and practice of Hinduism around us. And so when we would see idols everywhere and just kind of be exposed to that a lot.

My family would always connect the dots, as is in this presence and practice of Hinduism is a major part in our oppression, in the reason why we have family members in poverty, and the reason why there's kind of this generational, the generational trauma really, which we didn't have a language to call it that, but that's kind of what they were kind of pointing to. So yeah, it was largely in terms of religion that I understood it from an early age.

But I always knew that we were a Dalit, and I think the first time I heard about caste in the States was in a History class. I want to say, third, no fifth or sixth grade. No sixth grade. Fifth grade is California state history in California, and then sixth grade is world history. And we were talking about caste in the section about India. And I was obviously the only Indian person in my class. And so I was asked what caste I was from, and I was just too embarrassed to say because I knew what it was. But I tried to, like, finesse it because I said, “My family is not a part of the caste system.” which is technically true. But obviously, you know, my teacher is white. She doesn't understand that.

So, yeah, not too much conversation beyond a religious conversation. And then I would say when I was in college is when I would say I really got conscious about being Dalit and more than just the spiritual history of our faith in India, but also the kind of the socio-political location that I have as a Dalit or my people have. And a lot of that I kind of also discovered through my faith journey, processing pain, processing trauma with myself, my family, and largely, you know, the community. It was very much a personal kind of process. But yeah, so up until college there was really not much consciousness about being Dalit, but there was plenty of conversation because it came up in the way that we lived, you know, in my parents’ lives. Like they would come home and talk about how they experienced it at work that day, or how our family is experiencing it back in India, presently.

DA: 7:46
Can you take me a little bit back to when you were talking about, you said religion is the way in which you understood caste, right? So can you delve a little bit more into that? What did that look like? Like, how exactly were those conversations had?

DS: 8:09
Um, so I think in my family's experience, we have found that actually in many cases being Christian, particularly where we were in India, was looked upon as less than being Dalit. And largely being being Dalit meant that we were more easily introduced to Christianity because of being poor, and both indigenous Indian missionaries and Western missionaries largely came to the poor poor areas, right. And so that's where we were introduced to Jesus. There's kind of this rhetoric, I think, becoming Christian as a Dalit or really as any any caste person, but obviously I largely heard it as like Dalits becoming Christian, that we kind of forsake our caste identity when becoming Christian. So that's why we didn't talk too much being Dalit. We talked about being Christian. But really, it's just coded language for being Dalit. Because our experience was different from other Christians. So that's how I kind of understood that I think at an early age.

And then you know, Indians are such spiritually hungry people and people that love to worship and so, the religion is a huge piece of our culture and identity. And so being in the States, a place that really has a very limited understanding of Indian culture, religion, and the nuance of that, as I was growing up here, I was trying to build my identity as an Indian Christian. And that was really difficult to do when I didn't share, I had no idea what Diwali was, or we didn't have idols in our house. I couldn't speak to a lot of the same things that either Americans kind of understood and this really trivial limited way, or that my fellow Indian South Asian peers experienced on a daily basis. So I was just, you know, none of them went to church. They couldn't compute that there was an Indian Christian, both American folks of all kinds and then Indians themselves couldn't compute that there is an Indian Christian. And so it was a very clear kind of line for me.

And I think, when we were growing up, I think one of the ways that it took shape, that kind of intersection of caste and religion was there were a lot of sort of like ethnic or cultural groups or associations around the place that we're living. Now I'm in Sacramento. And, you know, obviously we want to find community, people that look like us, people that share our values, our culture. But we were not welcome in a lot of these associations and groups. Twofold, one because the language of being a cultural group gets coded for a religious group. So typically, they were like Hindu groups. And then even beyond that, what, and again, this is stuff that's kind of under wraps, it's kind of hard to see it's not like a label on their side, under that there was a caste coding. So typically, everyone in that group would be a part of the same caste.

And so kind of how, you know, we experienced that just on a daily basis growing up in the state of California. And so I was very aware that there's a clear association with religion and caste and being Christian. We are on one side of that, that kind of divide, that line. Yeah, so that's largely how those conversations went within my home and then back home in India.

I think I always felt kind of torn about having or leaning further into that conversation because of how [pauses] racist people are here. And so it's kind of hard to talk about religious violence or just like the, or even, you know, getting real, like, core basic in terms of the Scriptures, here in this context where people don't understand nuances, or I felt like I would be. I didn't feel like anyone else shared this unique experience or understanding that I was having, and I wasn't able to talk about it at all growing up.

DA 13:20
It can be very isolating.

DS: 13:22
Yes, very, very isolating.

DA: 13: 25
And I think it just reminded me of two things. Like I remember we were in India one time and there was this guy doing like a census. And he asked, he was like, “What is your last name?” It was my Mom answering these questions. And he was like, “What's your caste?” And my Mom goes “Christians Babu,” and that was it. [laughs] And I was like, what is what I don't understand? What does that mean? Because I couldn't put it together. But she was just so mad that he would ask that question, because like we got to a certain economic level. That, you know, you think you get to forget about these things, but that stuff follows you just everywhere. And I also was reminded of this time where like, it was in the US. And I remember this, like, little boy asked me what religion I was. And I was like, Oh, you know, I'm Christian. And he's like, when you're a traitor. You're a traitor to India. I was just genuinely confused. Because I wasn't equipped with the knowledge to stand up for myself, by any means. And even if I was like, I mean, I think we always know there's just like this inherent knowledge that there's a difference. There's something deeper going on. But yeah, I think like, there's just a lot of similarities in just the way that we experience society in this country. It’s just a very like, it doesn't go away, and at the same time, it's so subtle, a subtle kind of discrimination but It's deeply violent at the same time. So I think you’ve shown all of those things really well.

DS: 15:05
Yeah. Yeah. I think definitely that element of like shedding cast was super significant. And I think there's also an aspect of just being an immigrant to the states that kind of involves, like a lot of a similar kind of ethos. So one of the things I was told from a very young age was that from a religious perspective that we don't belong here. Not just because we're immigrants, but because this world is just not for us. And we are people that are looking forward to another world that will come when time ends and Jesus returns. And I was told that from a very young age. So they were like, my parents were just like, don't get too comfortable. Part of that is that very, like protective Indian parenting, you know, like, don't get too comfortable here. But then also it's because they weren't comfortable here or back in India.

I think there's something so valuable and deep about that. I think it's why coming from a religious perspective, like, Jesus says that the poor are the closest to the kingdom of heaven on Earth. Theirs is the kingdom of heaven. It's because they have this sensibility to kind of this beautiful spiritual kingdom that's coming and the God that is kind of sovereign over that. One of the unfortunate pieces of that was that I think it also from a religious lens that kind of gave us permission to shed our caste identity because we don't have to worry about this world, right? We just like maneuver and then get to the end point. And then God rescues us. But as things were, it would happen, you know, growing up, it was just like, no, this is part of our reality today. And when I finally started to, like, understand that that was something that mattered today or something that we have done that people need to engage in and kind of own in a sense today, it changed also a lot about the way I would also understand these things in my religion.

DA: 17:42
Yeah, I am curious about that aha moment for you when you realize like, oh, like right now this world there are systemic problems that are keeping my people [laughs] from having a good life, you know, from having any dignity. Was there like one aha moment that you had or it was just like a gradual building into it?

DS: 18:09
Um [pauses] I would say it was kind of it was a little more gradual, I think. Yeah, gradual but I think in the grand scheme not so much it was, I think all it is, and this is I think the way that it starts for a lot of people, is the experience of pain or the experience of trauma really reveals some things that need to change right. And so for me it was actually experiencing a lot of the just have holding that pain being a Dalit, but then also you know, I grew up in a predominantly white area when I was in Sacramento, and there was a lot of pain that came with that as well. And just like, you know, my parents are immigrants as well. There's a lot of just kind of just kind of take it on the chin, keep moving kind of mentality attitude. And so I think in large part I kind of was numb to a lot of this stuff, this pain. And so for me, actually, it started from a standpoint of actually going back and engaging with pain. And the beginning of that for me was I did an internship, a six week internship in Los Angeles. It was called an urban program. It is with an intervarsity Christian Fellowship, and it was kind of an immersive internship and kind of learning what it means to partner with God, God's work in the inner cities of America. And one of the significant pieces of that was, it was the first time I was like actually forcing myself not to be numb or like hard hearted towards pain, but actually engaging with someone else's pain and other communities pain. And that kind of opened the door to my own. And so there was this large, long time of like processing and getting some healing and stuff, a lot of the stuff that I'm still kind of in in the middle of, and then I went to India in the summer of 2017. And I think that's when, I guess if I would pick an aha Moment has probably been, because it was coming back with this new like a soft heart, finally, and actually letting myself feel and experience some of the things that I just took as like reality, but saw just how like messed up they were, you know. Hearing stories from my grandparents, getting to witness some things firsthand, I was just really like sensitive to some of this stuff. And I was like, wow, you know, it shouldn't be this way. And and thus far, you know, we've lived as if this is just, this is cool. And then if it's not cool, like it's okay, there's gonna be a day where all this gets washed away, which is good to look forward to, but what about today as well. So that was, I think in 2017 that was that was a big moment for me of getting conscious to that.

Yeah, man, it's so hard. I don't, like, I think because I've actually been to India one more time after that. And I was very protective that second time because it was, like, honestly kind of traumatic for me to go back after that first time, and just because of the, you know, you can attribute it to a lot of different things in India, because there are a lot of different forms of systemic injustice. But to be in a place that's like, there's still some fresh wounds, or there's still some things that that are you really sensitive to, it's so overwhelming. Like, like, yeah, and I think that's a really hard thing because, you know, as Dalits that are conscious, like we really want for change, right? And we want to be doing work and act, and stuff like that, but anything like that is so difficult to do when it's so when you're actually there, and it's so prevalent and it's so deep and it's in the air, you know? It's in the water.

DA: 22:50
Right? And I think like there's like a heaviness and there's like just a spiritual heaviness you know, and I think I felt it very deeply last time that I went and I was like, I'm not. [laughs] I will not deal with this right now, because it's a land that murdered a lot of our people and did a lot of really, really awful things. I think that lingers. And I don't want to romanticize Dalit spirituality or identity or anything like that. But like that stuff lives in our bones still, you know, like to be in a place was that tangible. Yeah, there's a lot, so I understand.

I did want to talk to you a little bit about yeah, so, I think part of the project, and part of just my goal in life in general, is to not paint, you know, one sided pictures of our communities and there's a lot of pain right? There's a lot like there's deep trauma. And there's a lot that is still going on in India and even here, or even in the US. But I'm wondering, I'm interested in talking a little bit about like, were you taught to love your identity? You answered this a little bit, you said, you know, that wasn't something that a lot of us talk about. But were you taught that, and if not, how did you start? If you've started, I don't want to make any assumption. But how did you start to cultivate that kind of pride? Not because somebody put a title on you, but you know, just understanding what your people have been through. And yeah, so how did you start cultivating that if you have and were you taught any kind of love for being Dalit?

DS: 24:48
Yeah, this is a really good question. I don't think I was taught anything like that in any kind of love for being Dalit. Like I said, we kind of forsook that identity. Um, it's a tough thing for me because there's a piece of just being Dalit and not knowing too much about what it means. Partially, because whether it's the lack of story, lack of history, or it's just the lack of connection, there's a way of like, I think it's really easy to just cling very tightly to that identity because it gives some kind of identity. And really, you know, a lot of us are just really looking for a sense of identity. [pauses] But I don't think that's really what it means to love being Dalit. And I think like I actually have not so I'm glad you made the caveat or like assumption, like, you know, the fact of a being Dalit, like it's not a, it was never a positive identity. It literally means broken people, crushed people, right? So we as Dalit, we bear that identity. If we're going to claim that we're the Dalit, we bear that, and there's parts of it that's like, there's no way to, to kind of change it because of the way the world is. That's really deeply hurtful. Right? And traumatic. And so I'm actually in a period of life where I'm really trying to figure out well, what is it that we, that connects us or that we can take pride in that isn't the oppression because that's what the term comes from. That's why we are who we are, you know, he's, we have a connection as oppressed people.

So I think it really just has to do with, like, healing from that sense, and I don't know if you felt this, but I think there's a lot of ways that, like, that identity of being a crushed person is put on us, right? And so it kind of just lives in us, and it's so hard to shake, and I think it's rare that we get a chance to heal from it. If you do it the immigrant way of like, it doesn't matter. I don't care, I'm gonna hustle, I'm gonna get it and just ignore this. Or I think what I'm trying to figure out is engaging with it. How do we heal and how do we find love and being known in our Dalit-ness?

But yeah, so I think it just starts with healing and then goes from there. I think there's definitely some things that are worth taking pride in for sure. Like, for me early on it was just seeing primarily the resilience and the resilience the ways that people have. I think I look a lot to just folks in my own family, to, you know, my mother, her family's all girls and to see where they've been able to go, coming from a background like a village background, from the slums. See my Grandfather, you know who nobody gave him a blueprint. Nobody was around with a blueprint, or even had something that they could read. They couldn't read to figure out how to succeed or move forward. So there's a lot of deep history of resilience in my family. And I think in our community, that some of the stuff that I take pride in, but still very much on the journey of learning to love.

I was actually recently having this conversation with somebody, and we were talking about how there's a lot of rhetoric in preserving the Christian faith of being children of God, and how that's so super significant in the faith in terms of establishing identity, because of the person that created you. But there's also almost this way that it's that kind of rhetoric is used in almost kind of like a trite, minimizing sort of way, where, you know, I might hear that and that's really that's incredible for our people to hear. But then at the same time, it's often not like, fleshed out or isn't really complete, or it's whitewashing or something where it doesn't include. It's like, what will that mean for me? And again, I don't want to like, put all my chips in the Dalit spirituality box either of like, it has to fit everything perfectly, because there is a lot of ways that that's just a piece of our identity, you know, but at the same time, I think there's this way that we need to understand and experience what it means to be children of God in a way that includes being Dalit and not, doesn't like ignore it or makes you like, leave it behind, because you've moved on to being a child of God. But the way that Jesus does it is he envelops the entirety of who you are when he calls you that. I think that that's what I would love to see. I don't know what that looks like on a large scale, but I would love to see that Dalits in the US, I think, come to experience that kind of healing and be able to step up, and honestly, like just offer the spaces. And one of the things I struggle with a lot in this journey of healing is I don't know who to talk to, or who to get guidance from on this journey. Because it's, it's unlike many other forms of healing. It's unlike many other forms of oppression to start with. And so, I would just love to see people be able to contribute because we have that, we have that experience as gifts in our community, to be able to share those resources and have things for specifically young people to be able to tap into as they're on a journey.

DA: 31:52
Now, can you tell me a little bit about, have you experienced any kind of ways in which you were discriminated against in the US because of your caste, by other South Asian people or unknowingly by folks that are not, you know, that are not from the country from India?

DS: 32:24
Yeah, I mean, I always felt again because I didn't grow up around many South Asians. So, like me personally, I don't think I had too many interactions where it kind of came up. There were a few but I don't, I never gave it too much weight because they were also like kids, you know, they don't know anything about this stuff.

The real, you know, the real deep places I felt like I experienced that in the US was through my family. And like my Mom was a lecturer for a long time. And she taught at, I won't say the school. It is a good, really a prestigious school in California. And she taught in like a South Asian department and it was entirely casteist, in you know the folks that they would promote were casteist. A lot of this was in the Bay Area, too. They would have a lot of like conferences and associations and they would meet there. And my Mom was like, one of the first, she taught Telugu so she was one of the, she was actually the first Telugu Professor at that school. And she would just constantly get disinvited from events. And she's a PhD. She's incredible. People would be very incredibly disrespectful. And so some of that stuff I would see, like I was mentioning, you know, just these community organizations that my, my family wanted to be a part of, or maybe went and checked out here and there. It was very clear that like, we were not welcome. Yeah, so that's a lot of the ways that I think we experienced it. And we, you know, I found that like, in the US, particularly, because a lot of people like even non caste depressed people like to feel like we've moved on from that. A lot of times the elements of discrimination don't really pop up until it's prompted by something. And so usually that's just the conversation around caste or caste related topics like reservations. That's when I found people really like you get to see how people really are, how people really feel. So, but generally kind of day to day, it's kind of hard. I know for me especially being brought up here it’s hard for me to tell.

DA: 35:03
Now, when you see yoga, when you see all of these elements of what is known as Hinduism, in India, like kind of seeped into American culture, especially in the Bay Area, does, I don't know, like does that, do you worry that inadvertently people are learning a lot of casteist things without knowing?

DS: 35:35
Yeah, I mean, I definitely, yeah, definitely think about it. I mean, it's just, it's a weird thing to kind of be caught in the middle of, you know, because largely, you know, the people that are kind of growing in their understanding of these things feel as if they're being cultured, as if they're they're kind of growing in their cultural intelligence, their cultural consciousness, religious consciousness even but it's just weird to be, I think most often be the only person in the room that knows anything beyond this kind of like, common, common understanding. Do I worry that caste is getting picked up as those things? I think so, but I don't think it's...I'm worried about the non South Asian folks that are like practicing or engaging in these things. I think it's just like dumb. [laughs] Like it's just ignorant, like you could you could do a lot better. But I get it, it's America, you have to feed people. They'll, you know, they only have this much room. They're like South Asian tray. You know, I mean, so I get it. That is I'm not worried about that.

I'm worried about what the kind of this influx or like this, this feeding, how that supports or gives back to folks that do want to institute caste in the US from South Asia. So Hindu nationalists, Hindu fascists, their kind of institutions, their presence, their power, their wealth. I feel like that's it kind of it supports them or it's definitely helpful I think for them to be able to see that this is a way that they're able to kind of mesh into the gradients of American culture. I think that's what I would be concerned about, but not the, yeah, the non South Asian.

DA: 37:30
Are you involved in any kind of activism, like, at all, or just I think what I'm interested in hearing about is a lot of this project is liberatory, right. So, and that, for me that has been talking to a lot of writers and talking to a lot of activists. So I would just love to know a little bit more about, you know, how you discuss these ideas. Is it through a certain activist lens? Is it through, you know, strictly a writing lens? Like Can you talk about that a little bit? Does that question make sense?

DS: 38:12
Yeah, yeah. Um, I, you know, I'm actually not, I don't think I'm in a place where I'm doing a lot of activism or even writing on the topics.

DA: 38:28
I don't think you have to be, that's the thing. I feel like waking up in the morning is the resistance, a lot of times, especially with what our people have been through.

DS: 38:39
Yeah, I think that. Yeah, I think that's what I would say to that question of, particularly with a liberatory kind of angle, like, right now I'm focused on healing. I'm focused on what it means to be okay. Like to be not isolated, to have, to be able to read the news and not weep, like, that's what I'm focused on. And to me, you know, it's kind of like an internal thing. It starts, you know, it starts internally, I would love to be able to do a lot of stuff and my long term goals are to do a lot of stuff. But I think I feel like I'm just learning that like, it's impossible to sustain anything like that if we aren't healed. If we aren't whole, if we don't have joy, if we don't have love, if we don't love things that matter. So, yeah, so I think that's for me, that's just the priority. And I think that like you mentioned that that is one of the most liberatory things you could do, if not more liberatory. In terms of that, I mean, I am definitely connected to organizations that are doing activism, Equality Labs for one, folks like Thenmozhi. And I would say, there is some writing stuff as well, but largely my parents pastored at an Indian church in Sacramento, and I would say from the pulpit as well is a place where this conversation is happening. And I think in a sense I’m not there, I’m in Long Beach, but as a family we are kind of doing the work a little bit, inviting people in the church in a spiritual perspective to engage with caste and to do something about it.

DA: 40:41
So I know that you mentioned that being Dalit is a part of your identity. It isn’t the only thing and to get hyper focused on that is fine, but at the same time it’s a part to a whole, so I wanted you to just talk a little bit more about your interests and your hobbies and things apart from being Dalit. What are the things that you like and the things you find liberating apart from all of the stuff that you do, the writing, and I know that everything is interconnected but at the same time, you get what I mean.

DS: 41:23
Yeah yeah, that’s very true. It is largely interconnected. There is a lot, and I think it’s hard because there isn’t much language for it, it’s not from a Dalit perspective, but how being Dalit does really inform or give you a way, wether its sensitivity or its gifts, stuff that does manifest in other things in your hobbies or in the ways that you can relate to different people. So for me, I just love being in a relationship, so just having a great community. I went to school down here in Long Beach, so I have a lot of good friends here. I’m part of a church here in West Long Beach, also community focused, doing a lot of really good work in the city. And so I have a great, it’s very life giving to be a part of a community. What else, I think I love to write. I think a big intersection for me is poetry, writing a lot of poetry that is largely informed, kind of giving me an avenue to articulate, again without a lot of the language that I just learned to speak about some of this stuff. I think poetry is a really great avenue to be able to talk about things. And on that note I love music. I love hip hop specifically. I’m actually working on a book project with my pastor on hip hop. Um, but yeah I love listening to music and just taking care of myself and making sure I’m developing as a young man, as a professional, and as a man I have certain goals, as a son. And yeah just sort of growing and really leaning into that in my twenties is something that I’m invested in.